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confused about contact

bl*ck jack said: I am hoping to get some good advice about something I am not sure I understand. I don't know if people just have different ideas of how it should be or if I am not understanding any of it clearly. My problem is I read too much and I am getting conflicting info. When riding a horse straight as in straight down the long side, should you feel equal weight in both hands or should your inside hand create a little flexion at the poll and then be softer with the inside hand so that the horse is more on the outside rein and the inside hand is only used again when you lose the flexion. All this while the inside leg pushes the horse into the outside rein? I hear some people say always to have equal weight in the reins and some people say push the horse from the inside leg into the outside rein. Am I wrong in thinking that if you push the horse from the inside leg constantly into the outside rein that the outside rein would almost always carry a little more weight? Are these two different ways to riding or am I missing something? What about for circles too? If you feel like the horse is not bending as well to one side, would you say that you may need more outside leg back to contain the hindquarters from escaping the bend or more inside leg lifting or yielding the inside shoulder out to the outside rein or both? Thanks in advance, this has really had me confused and I feel like I am constantly switching from one way to another not knowing which way is correct.

slc2 said: Inside leg to outside rein. Some dressage trainers emphasize this slightly more than others. Some trainers keep horses in a very slight shoulder fore position at times for some work (it's called 'position fore' or 'position'). At almost NO point in doing this should you feel an uneven rein contact. If you do, something is wrong. Some trainers do not use actual position, but they still get the horse straight without that. It is the same feel and use of the aids, but they simply don't position the horse while doing so, what a friend called 'the invisible position'. As an isolated exercise, at brief times in training, for a few strides, further along in the training, the trainer can release the inside rein, and have the horse go around in a collected position without stretching out to a lower, longer neck position, by using the inside leg to keep the horse 'on the outside rein'. This is done for brief periods and the horse isn't expected to hold that position indefinitely (because if he were to, it would mean the neck muscles are contracted and held in, and collection is false) - hopefully before he gets tired doing it, both legs will send him reaching to the bit. It is also very easy to 'fake' this work and very, very easy to misunderstand it. Earlier in training, the horse is always expected to 'take the reins down'. This is as if your legs stretch your horse's neck out. You don't drop the reins and teach him to put his head down, many people do that but it's wrong, he actually pulls on the reins and pulls them out longer, as you urge him with your legs, you can feed the reins out to him as he lengthens his neck downward, and never see the rein go slack, and always have a feel of contact in both reins, when you do this right. The horse should feel like an accordian, that you can stretch out, stretch in, at will, ,always with the reins taut (stretched, contact taken up). Whether they use a little position or not, the goal is always the same, to have equal weight in both reins at nearly all times, to have equal contact in the reins at nearly all times. To have equal contact, you have to have both hind legs stepping into the bit in the same way - joints of the hind legs bending in the same way, both feet being put down under the body not too far out sideways, etc. Equal contact does not come from having one rein feel 'harder' and pulling and spongeing on it more, but by equalling up the action of the hind legs; the use of the reins is minor but compared to that. The ONLY exception to 'equal contact' is when making a brief correction, for example, the horse runs away with you. Even then, the moment is very brief, and the effort is to go back immediately to 'both hind legs step into the rein the same way'. If a horse 'feels too hard' on one rein, the reins have a minor role; most of the correction has to come from the leg, urging the horse's weaker or 'less carrying' hind leg to get to work. If a horse leans inward, a slight bend (not too much, or it will throw him more to the inside) helps him get his weight away from the 'leaning to' side. On a circle, getting 'both hind legs to step into the bit the same way' means encouraging the inside leg to work just a little bit harder, it has to bend very slightly more in its joints, and carry very slightly harder, where as the outside hind leg has to stretch and reach and push just a tiny bit more. This is why circling helps to develop a horse, by circling one way a few times, and then changing direction, each leg gets a turn at being the harder working leg; strengthening the horse.

r*leyt said: I mostly agree with SLC, but let me see if I can add a few helpful thoughts. Most beginner dressage riders really struggle to learn how to ride the OUTSIDE aids on a horse. It seems natural (either due to previous riding experiences, or just impulse) to want to overuse the inside rein. So, I think there is a lot of merit in teaching a rider to ride the OUTSIDE aids (perhaps even a bit to the detriment of the inside aids). As SLC said, you eventually want to end up EVEN. But "getting to even" is a process. In my own experience, I have found that young horses are much more likely to drift thorugh the outside aids, than the inside ones. As you move up the levels, and make smaller and smaller figures, that requires more and more strength from the horse. Accordingly, I often feel as though I have more weight in the Outside rein, than in the inside one. And, I frequently "drop" the inside rein (just to give a release, or give a quick pat), while maintaining the horse completely (if only momentarily) on the outside rein. So I believe you SHOULD be able to drop that inside rein and have nothing change. Most people tend to want to hang on that inside rein too much. So, as to your specific question, here's what I'd say: True, on a straightaway, your horse should be absolutely straight, and with an even contact -- BUT... in a dressage arena, you never ride on a straightaway for too long... there is always a circle/bend coming up soon. In an advanced horse/rider, the rider should be able to establish (and switch) the horse easily and within a split second. At Grand Prix, a horse should be able to go from a severe bend to the right, straighten, and then rebalance and re-bend to the left instantaneously. (e.g., in the half-pass zig zags). But the reality for most lower level riders is that keeping the connection and bend correct is harder, and doesn't happen instantaneously. So, for that reason, when I'm riding younger horses, I frequently keep them MORE on the outside rein (even on the straightaway), so that when I get to the circle, the horse is set up correctly to do the circle. But, even when you have the horse in the outside rein... he should not be "bent" at all on the straightaway. He should be straight. You can still use the inside rein to help soften/flex, but only for a second, then you must let go so you can maintain the straightness. Don't know if that helps...

bl*ck jack said: Thanks Here is additional info/questions Some trainers keep horses in a very slight shoulder fore position at times for some work (it's called 'position fore' or 'position'). At almost NO point in doing this should you feel an uneven rein contact. If you do, something is wrong. I was rding this way and did seem to feel a more even contact on both reins but at the same time I had a very very slight shoulder fore to the inside which made it feel like when I came to a turn or made a circle I already had my horse more on the outside rein and was really able to guide the horse's shoulders through the turn or circle. But then I started obsessing that maybe this takes away too much bend so I started riding more into the ouside rein and slighlty flexing the neck into the turn with the inside and outside and then releasing the inside rein when I felt the horse flex and move more into the ourside rein. i tried to continue guiding the turn with the outside hand pressing against the neck while using my outide leg back and down and my inside leg still pushing into the outside rein. I think he feels more flexible this way but I feel the contact is uneven and i don't feel the shoulders lifting and turning around the turns. So does this mean he is just falling onto the outside shoulder which may feel to me like he is more on the outside rein? So, I think there is a lot of merit in teaching a rider to ride the OUTSIDE aids (perhaps even a bit to the detriment of the inside aids). As SLC said, you eventually want to end up EVEN. But "getting to even" is a process I think this may be what is happening to me. I never understood the outside aides and when I started pushing into the outside hand and leg and realeasing the inside hand alot, I could really feel for a few strides what it felt like for the horse to be only on the outside aides and to maintain his position and feel through his body by just my outside hand against the neck and my oustide leg back and down. I just didn't know if my goal was to have the horse eventually stay that way all the time or just to use it here and there to remind both of us to use our outside and not our neck and inside hand alone. This Sunday will be our first ever show Intro A for either of us. Should I just focus on riding the shoulders straight with and even contact and not worry so much about bend at this time? I would also like to mention that my horse fell last year Due to EPM and tore muscles up in his right hip and had a long time off. We did do a minor surgey type procedure and he has had accupuncture/chiro/and everything in between to heal him. He had 4 months Marquies and is on Sulf/Prym for 3 more months with Vit E/ selenium/ Magnesium. He has healed beautifully and is not lame or sore but he is still much weaker with his right hind. I spent three months with ground driving and super huge lounging circles and walking ground poles to help before riding him. He has been back under saddle about 2 months. How does this play into how I ride him straight to even out both sides? Or in other words to help the right hind become stronger? I try to keep things very relaxed with him due to all he has been through. I do not ask him for things he can not handle and I am very patient in rehabbing him to strength. I really don't care much for showing. I just want to see if I can get helpful; feedback from the judges as to anything I may be doing wrong.

*ngel said: This busines of inside leg to outside rein is way over-used. It is one of those things that is taught without regard to how the horse is traveling and that is just so wrong. Inside leg to outside rein is appropriate for any circle, or portion of a circle. When you go back to riding a straight line, the aids are more about outside leg to inside rein, though when you are riding a straight line along the wall, there is a slight bend, so the weight must stay more on your inside stirrup. Away from the wall, on a true straight line in either trot or walk, the aids are equally given to each side of the horse inturn. There is no bias to either the inside or the outside. However, there is a slight bend to the canter, and the aids are primarily outside leg to inside rein on that one. The determining factors as to whether you are working the inside leg to outside rein has to do with which of the shoulders you want to block and which direction does the motion need to travel. Over time, you need to learn how the use of the primary aids affect how the motion goes. Let me give you a few more for instances to start you on your way. When we begin a horse in training, one of the primary movements taught is the turn-on the forehand. This seeks to block the outside shoulder and control the step under of the inside hind, i.e. inside leg to outside rein. However, later in the training we go to the turn on the haunches, and for this, your primary aids are outside leg to inside rein as you want to block the horse's inside shoulder. Take this a step more toward the transition from shoulder in to half pass, which goes from using the inside leg to outside rein as the primary aids for shoulder-in to outside leg/inside rein for half pass. You have not asked a simple question, and it will take you time to learn which shoulder to block, and which hind leg to drive forward. Just remember that it is not always about one or the other, and your aids need to be taylored to how you want the horse to change through the motion.

m*rrygoround said: The purpose of the slight shoulder fore position is to have the horse actually tracking straight. They are wider through the hips than the shoulders. so yu want to have the shoulders slightly away from the wall. Equal weight in both reins, as it is the legs that create the bend and turn. The reins support.

*cecapade said: This busines of inside leg to outside rein is way over-used. It is one of those things that is taught without regard to how the horse is traveling and that is just so wrong. Inside leg to outside rein is appropriate for any circle, or portion of a circle. When you go back to riding a straight line, the aids are more about outside leg to inside rein, though when you are riding a straight line along the wall, there is a slight bend, so the weight must stay more on your inside stirrup. Away from the wall, on a true straight line in either trot or walk, the aids are equally given to each side of the horse inturn. There is no bias to either the inside or the outside. However, there is a slight bend to the canter, and the aids are primarily outside leg to inside rein on that one. The determining factors as to whether you are working the inside leg to outside rein has to do with which of the shoulders you want to block and which direction does the motion need to travel. Over time, you need to learn how the use of the primary aids affect how the motion goes. Let me give you a few more for instances to start you on your way. When we begin a horse in training, one of the primary movements taught is the turn-on the forehand. This seeks to block the outside shoulder and control the step under of the inside hind, i.e. inside leg to outside rein. However, later in the training we go to the turn on the haunches, and for this, your primary aids are outside leg to inside rein as you want to block the horse's inside shoulder. Take this a step more toward the transition from shoulder in to half pass, which goes from using the inside leg to outside rein as the primary aids for shoulder-in to outside leg/inside rein for half pass. You have not asked a simple question, and it will take you time to learn which shoulder to block, and which hind leg to drive forward. Just remember that it is not always about one or the other, and your aids need to be taylored to how you want the horse to change through the motion. thats so perfect in my mind-thank you.

*mbrey said: The purpose of the slight shoulder fore position is to have the horse actually tracking straight. They are wider through the hips than the shoulders. so yu want to have the shoulders slightly away from the wall. Equal weight in both reins, as it is the legs that create the bend and turn. The reins support. And yet it's not even nearly that simple is it? As you're constantly adjusting each rein to keep the horse straight between your leg and hand, and adjusting the pressure on each. I agree that I never feel like I have more weight in one rein than the other but on the other hand I don't feel like I'm carrying a constant number of pounds in either hand. But who knows, maybe I'm just doing it wrong ;)

slc2 said: "adjusting the reins to even up the pressure" No, you should not be doing that.

*mbrey said: "adjusting the reins to even up the pressure" No, you should not be doing that. Who said that?

m*rrygoround said: Keeping the horse straight is the function of your legs and seat. The reins really shouldn't need adjusting. Watch the videos of the upper level riders, their hands , a least on the good ones, don't move. They may shift an elbow or shoulder a fraction, but their reins are steady. ;)

N*jacketrequired said: Originally Posted by slc2 "adjusting the reins to even up the pressure" No, you should not be doing that. Who said that? Just about everyone. The horse goes to the reins, the reins don't come to the horse. NJR

*mbrey said: Keeping the horse straight is the function of your legs and seat. The reins really shouldn't need adjusting. Watch the videos of the upper level riders, their hands , a least on the good ones, don't move. They may shift an elbow or shoulder a fraction, but their reins are steady. ;) There is a HUGE difference, to me, between saying that the reins don't move and that the rider is keeping a constant pressure on each rein or not using them at all. The reins are part of the connection to the horse. eta: the reason I asked who said the adjusting the reins thing is that I used that term but not exactly in that context, and I meant adjusting the pressure on the reins not the position or length.

Sn*ball 1 said: This is all good input, but I have a question. Can you have too much contact, and not enough "following" on the outside rein, as well as too much inside leg?? The reason I'm asking this, is because I started working with a trainer a few months ago, who seemed overly preoccupied with me having a death grip on that outside rein, where I have always been taught to have a steady, allowing, following contact on the outside rein. Then I'm told to add a very strong inside leg to get proper inside bend bend, and all of this leads to my horse becoming very resistant and going behind my leg. So I too am very confused, please shed some light :confused:

*ngel said: There is so much to understand about contact. The reins should be in balance with each other. What this means is that both reins should feel equally light and adjustable. If we take one rein forward, then the other rein must go back to maintain this equality of contact on both sides. Where we run into problems is when the horse is not completely trained, and does not understand to relax his jaw equally on both sides. This is really more than the horse understanding even, as the incorrect contact is the results of a rein and its diagonal leg being out of balance somewhat. When the horse is crooked, it means that neither working with the inside leg into the outside rein, or working the outside leg into the inside rein is ever quite right. So when we do not have the ability to place a horse into balance by correcting the diagonals, it means that we will seem to have one rein more snug than the other. The snugness is caused by the horse being slightly against the hand and not working correctly from the seat. It is not unusual for a lower level horse to be working this way. I once heard the legs and the hands of the rider described as the sides of the channel through which the horse's body traveled. In a perfect world, when the rider makes the adjustment by rotating the torso either inward or outward again, which changes the rider's weighting on each side of the horse, the contact, i.e. leg to rein along the diagonal, should correctly change. The horse should feel the greater weight in one stirrup and feel a momentary increased pressure from the bit on the diagonal rein. The horse should then adjust its body in response. However, most riders are also very crooked, and now we have both horse and rider stumbling back and forth in the channel like a drunken sailor. When we ride, if we are riding a circle, the outside of the horse needs to elongate, and the outside rein also needs to lengthen as the results of how the rider shifts the torso, and in this case on the circle in walk or trot, the outside shoulder moves a bit forward and the inside shoulder moves a bit back over the inside leg. On the straight line, the inside rein needs to lead the outside one, which is what should happen as the rider's torso straightens to the line of motion a bit. Canter's the odd man out. It always must have the inside rein somewhat forward, slightly less on the circle, but forward none-the-less.

slc2 said: This is all good input, but I have a question. Can you have too much contact, and not enough "following" on the outside rein, as well as too much inside leg?? --The answer is always 'that depends'. --A great big horse with a huge stride and a big long neck, who is learning how to manage himself under saddle, and is, oh, three, four, five, COULD have a very strong contact with the reins. He could 'push a lot of himself' up to the bit and have problems coping with all his power because he has little balance yet. The point of the lower levels is teaching the horse to step into the bridle energetically because he is pushing off with his hind legs and that is going to the bridle. And if you take him and try to make him 'light', all you will do is make him crooked. --An upper level horse that has a ton of power and impulsion, ALSO pushes a lot of power to the bridle, but it's pure impulsion, and balanced. It may feel like too much to someone who's used to pleasure riding, it may be a shock, but all that power is supple and flexible, there's just a lot of it. The rider may be thinking, good heavens there is a lot in the outside rein - because he is so used to having so LITTLE horse in the outside rein. --What's the difference between THAT and a horse that is just pulling like an effing train and is completely off balance and the training is going all wrong, or the RIDER is pulling like a freight train and getting the horse to pull back, or the rider who is making the horse so off balance he can't HELP but pull? --The answer is, 'A riding instructor', usually. --To feel the difference between 'wow a lot of impulsion' and 'pulling like mad', you need an instructor to help you feel and see the difference. --'A lot of contact' to one person is 'this is a horse stepping into the bridle with a lot of impulsion' to another. -- When someone is used to INCORRECT contact, which is either a.) A horse behind the bit b.) A horse that is moving with insufficient energy from the rider's forward aids being deficient c.) A rider who rides with too long of a rein or some combination of all 3, when he's USED TO INCORRECT he thinks a CORRECT contact is INCORRECT. 'How it feels' is relative to experience, and past experience can be, well, wrong. The reason I'm asking this, is because I started working with a trainer a few months ago, who seemed overly preoccupied with me having a death grip on that outside rein, where I have always been taught to have a steady, allowing, following contact on the outside rein. --Impossible to say if she's wrong. It's easy to condemn the trainer ('that has to be wrong') but...as I said, 'What feels right' is a matter of what you're used to, and it's entirely possible your instructor is finally getting you to get a CORRECT contact on the outside rein, and it FEELS like a death grip to you, because you're used to not having ENOUGH contact with the outside. --It's also entirely possible that you NEED to have a lot of outside rein just right now because your horse is very crooked, popping his outside shoulder out, and not weighting his legs evenly. The 'death grip' you experience may actually be necessary right now, and the REASON it feels like a death grip is because the horse is so crooked and you're used to not having enough outside rein! Then I'm told to add a very strong inside leg to get proper inside bend bend, and all of this leads to my horse becoming very resistant and going behind my leg. --And if you've chronically gone around with out a connection and insufficient leg, that is EXACTLY what will happen when you do what you described with the reins. --If you have ridden your horse for a long time on 'cruise control', he is going to be very resistant when you finally try to 'ride' him. 'Cruise control' is very, very pleasant and easy. The horse doesn't have to push with his hind legs, and he doesn't need to carry with his hind legs. --That your horse is 'resistant', does not ALWAYS mean the trainer's corrects are incorrect. It could be exactly what needs to be done, and the horse is just used to things being very different. So I too am very confused, please shed some light --Well, you may want to hear the trainer is EWI (evil wrong and ignorant), but there are other possibilities. Like that she's right.

Sn*ball 1 said: Thanks guys, you both make sense. I do have a young horse 5, probably babied a bit too much. The end of my rides are quite good, just the first half feels like an effin train, so my solution has been longer warm up, then package this together, seems like we end at the same result. But I'll take these suggestions to heart :sadsmile:

slc2 said: Our descriptions are always 100% our perceptions. That's the thing to keep in mind. If you've got a good instructor she is telling you to do the right things, no matter how weird it seems or how different it feels, end of story. The even more goofy side of it is, if you've got a BAD instructor, no matter how good it might feel, it's wrong. This is one of the many tough lessons in dressage, that it is not all that easy to be 'an educated consumer', especially at the start.

2b*ys said: This is a really good thread. I am going to print it out and read it again.