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Hennig Sofa Princess Dressage Saddle 17.5"
Hennig Sofa Princess Dressage Saddle 17.5"
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Hennig Sofa Dressage Saddle 17.5" 06 Model, Black!
Hennig Sofa Dressage Saddle 17.5" 06 Model, Black!
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Used Hennig Sofa Dressage Saddle 17.5" - 18" Brown
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Related Hennig sofa dressage information

Andreas Helgstrand's new GP stallion Carabas

*lly said: Found this link on Horse-Gate.com - thought it would be of interest. http://www.helgstranddressage.com/carabas_video.html

*akstable said: So what does everyone think of this carriage horse movement?

r*dgeback said: Wow nice saddlebred:lol::lol:

STF said: He is riding Tannehhof's stallion Carabas??? AWESOME! I wish he could get the ride on London Swing too!!!

STF said: So what does everyone think of this carriage horse movement? I wuv it!!! :D:D:D Carriage horse, high collection, engagement, whatever its called for that day! :cool:

*lly said: STF - Apparently Helgstrand's new sponsors purchased Carabas for him as his mount for the upcoming European Championship, the WEG in 2010 and the 2012 Olympic Games - at least that is what has been reported on various websites such as Eurodressage.com.

fr*estyle2music said: He looks very much like a Friesian horse. I have seen this horse already in Donuaesschingen and also at that time I thought in a glimp that it was a Friesian. However I think this can become a very competitive horse for Andreas. Theo

*mbrey said: He sure does favor the super expressive, not-quite-the-norm horses doesn't he? I think he's lovely. Which probably means he sucks as a dressage horse :lol:

sm said: yes, I think he's lovely too. Take good care of him, Andreas. Best of luck!!

S*bine said: yes, I think he's lovely too. Take good care of him, Andreas. Best of luck!! Echo that- especially the SECOND part of the statement...may he be strong and stronger....to handle the training!

s*egi b. said: Theo - you know it's funny, but that was my first thought, too... Looks like a Friesian or Friesian cross. :-) Does anybody know Carabas' bloodlines?

STF said: Theo - you know it's funny, but that was my first thought, too... Looks like a Friesian or Friesian cross. :-) Does anybody know Carabas' bloodlines? http://www.gestuet-tannenhof.com/die_hengste/2008_carabas/pedigree.htm

SGr*y said: per Eurodressage "Carabas is a 10-year old Holsteiner stallion by Carnaby x Roberto and under Oliver Luze, the dark bay won the 2008 Medien Cup Finals for upcoming Grand Prix horses in Donaueschingen, Germany. Carabas competed at Grand Prix level twelve times in 2008 and always placed first or second always with scores of 70%. "

sm said: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tannenhofs+carabas not tooooooo far away in looks from Ladykiller and Cottage Son -- both in his line. Both have their photos in link above, go to stallion and click on their photo icon.

msr*bin said: He is just my style I love him. Completely gorgeous, my jaw hit the keyboard. Must have said horse :)

n*rcisco said: They really suit each other: tall, dark and handsome (and good lord, their legs are long!)

H*zelnut said: I'll be happy to watch them in person!

*nbridledoaks said: I like him!

XH*lt said: Yummy! I say give Andreas some time with him and they are going to be the team to beat. I love watching these new pairs coming up, Gal and Totillas, Parzival and now Andreas with Carabas. It's really interesting to watch the sport evolve...for better or worse!!

m*ckeydoodle said: love him

s*nnenschein said: That's a whole lot of knee action, but I find him very stunning horse. Hope to see a lot more of him!

P*mmederue said: I thought it looked like a black Spanish type horse. Very nice.

*ronbessflint said: Oooh....me likey! :D

*ASY RIDER STABLE said: all those derogitory comments from some of you posters...Are you jealous ? I don't know where anyone see's a "Carriage Horse" or "Saddlebred" type horse. I can faintly see the Friesen silouette in the video. Why can't you people just be happy for someone on their new aquisition ? And for those warmblood owners (which I am one) if you go back far enough in their pedigree they've ALL pulled a friggin' cart up and down a road somewhere ! go gettim' Andreas and Carabas ! !

J-L* said: He reminds me of Chacomo 003. I wonder if theyre related.

S*rviving the Dramas said: He reminds me of Chacomo 003. I wonder if theyre related. Chacomo is/was (??) one of my favorite international horses. Simply stunning movement. Can't say that Carabas jumped out at me like that, but I may have to have a relook now :D

J-L* said: Chacomo is/was (??) one of my favorite international horses. Simply stunning movement. Can't say that Carabas jumped out at me like that, but I may have to have a relook now :D It's the front-end that reminds me of Chacomo. They have similar front end movement in my eyes (as I recall of Chacomo) - raising the knees pretty high and reaching out with the shoulders. I think as he gets stronger, he might look more and more like Chacomo. Chacomo and Alexandra were a pretty cool combination to watch (!!!!) and he was one of relatively few pure Holsteiners to place sooooooo reliably highly in top International competition. I really enjoyed watching them, too!!:)

n*rcisco said: I want to see a lot more of him too, like what's under those wraps. I swear I'm seeing feathers. Odd, on a Holsteiner.

J-L* said: Are they feathers or flopping black bell boots?

WB M*m said: I was suprised to find that he is a Holsteiner. Somehow, I thought he would probably be one of the more 'dressage bred' WB breeds, if you know what I mean. I think he is a beautiful guy, and am excited to follow their progress. I wish we could move forward a year from now and watch them go, I bet they will be dynamite! :yes:

H*zelnut said: Yummy! I say give Andreas some time with him and they are going to be the team to beat. I love watching these new pairs coming up, Gal and Totillas, Parzival and now Andreas with Carabas. It's really interesting to watch the sport evolve...for better or worse!! Yup!

s*lah said: I must say, I immediately thought Friesian as well! In considering Carabas' pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/carabas2 His sire's damsire is Lord, who is the sire's sire of October Hill Farm's Lordship. Lordship excelled in dressage as well as jumping, and was possessed of that sort of outrageous movement...here is a youtube clip if you're interested (IMO, music is a bit annoying...might want to mute!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjm9RV8jS48 Lordship's son, Landonn I (out of an Ariadus mare) has that same type of movement: (again with the music!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rVsKzNLW98 That, together with watching clips of Rubin Royal and his sons, will make a movement addict out of me. Darned if I could sit it, but I love to watch it!

D*scobold said: It's the front-end that reminds me of Chacomo. They have similar front end movement in my eyes (as I recall of Chacomo) - raising the knees pretty high and reaching out with the shoulders. I don't think he looks anything like Chacomo :eek: Chacomo had tons of suspension, and the movement came from the back and hind end. . .do you see that in this horse :confused: ? Here is one video I could find of Chacomo (there are probably better ones) - http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Chacomo+&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f

st*lensilver said: I was lucky enough to watch the dressage at Olympia at Christmas and noticed that there seem to be several different ways that GP dressage horses move, especially in the trot. A Ferro son brought his hind feet up equally as high as his front ones and his cannon bones were definitely at the same outrageous angle throughout in the extended work. Mistral Hojris is unlike any of the others and seems to move like a cat with big paws behind. His back legs lift high and flex massively through the hocks too. Then there were horses who lifted their back feet high but not quite as extreme. I put Exquis Nadine and Parzival in this class. And finally there were the horses who appear to almost drag their back legs through in the medium and extended trots. Max is one of these as is Artemis. I would also classify this new horse of Andreas as being a back-leg-dragger in his extended trot. Right now I'm not sure what I think about these differences. I do believe the difference in hind leg action is genetic, not trained into the horse. So should a horse who naturally lifts their hind feet high be marked higher than a horse who naturally keeps the hind feet close to the ground in extended trot? I know which ones I prefer watching, it is those who lift their back legs high. It looks spectacular! But there is so much more to a GP test perhaps it doesn't matter? Thinking of Carabas as a stallion I don't think I'd use him because of his movement. I do prefer the more flamboyant back leg movement. I don't think he is the easiest ride either which weighs heavily with me as an amateur rider!

st*lensilver said: Disco I agree with you completely. What concerns me about Carabas is that his trot has absolutely no suspension in it at all unless he is doing passage. Chacomo moves like Parzival and Nadine, his back legs come 6-8" off the ground.

s*lah said: Per Stolensilver: I would also classify this new horse of Andreas as being a back-leg-dragger in his extended trot. Unless I missed something...I did not see him perform extended trot in that clip. I certainly did not notice any dragging of the hind, though granted, the hind leg lift didn't match the front...he would have been kicking himself in the belly, something that has been said of Rubin Royal, though with a caveat as to the corectness of his dressage work: http://www.eurodressage.com/news/breeding/oldenburg/2004/04stallic/althengst2.html I am certainly no expert, but I look for a lazy hind leg to show up in the piaffe & passage...I thought Carabas' was very ample indeed:yes:

H*ppy Feet said: I like him! I also didn't see much extended trot, a few steps were shown, I didn't see any hindlegs dragging :> His type may not appeal to everyone, and certainly he has alot of knee action! But I think he's pretty cool!

fr*estyle2music said: Please take in consideration that this was a ride of Andreas while Carabas was still owned by the former owner. So probably he didn't want to over-asked this horse. Theo

n*rcisco said: I think you're right. They're probably weighted bell boots, possibly with chains.

C*wgirl said: Yes, Theo and in addition, this was a tryout of the horse and the horse doesn't know Andreas. It impressed me that the horse, while looking a tad bit tense in the back, seemed completely submissive to what was asked and looked to be trying really hard for the rider. I just love him and think there is going to be a lot of improvement over time. The horse appears to me to have the ability to really use every inch of his body. The impression I got was that we were just seeing a fraction of what this horse has to offer. And with the previous rider, he has already scored over 70% in the young horse grand prix.

ch*ekyhorse said: very friesian type horse. Surprising he is a Holsteiner to me.

STF said: I highly do not think Oliver Luze would train his horses with weighted bell boots or chains. Come on people..........

n*rcisco said: I think they're used very, very commonly in Europe these days, no sin. And they result in movement like that. Why else would you put bell boots behind?

s*lah said: I think they're used very, very commonly in Europe these days, no sin. And they result in movement like that. Why else would you put bell boots behind? Omigosh...sometimes I hate the things I learn:(

w*ldswan said: Disco I agree with you completely. What concerns me about Carabas is that his trot has absolutely no suspension in it at all unless he is doing passage. Chacomo moves like Parzival and Nadine, his back legs come 6-8" off the ground. Take a closer look at some of the passage steps, especially the left hind I think it was. While it comes up under some during the air phase, he actually appears to put it down way out behind. Maybe it's just the angle the shot is taken from, but I don't think so.

C*wgirl said: I think they're used very, very commonly in Europe these days, no sin. And they result in movement like that. Why else would you put bell boots behind? Please don't make comments like these unless you have proof. It just gives dressage a bad name. My trainer spent several years in top dressage barns in Europe and never saw anything like this. Her own international gp horse has fantastic hind leg action and I can promise you it was NOT from the use of any kind of gadget. The reason these horses cost millions of euro and are not often sold is because they are BORN with this movement.

STF said: I think they're used very, very commonly in Europe these days, no sin. And they result in movement like that. Why else would you put bell boots behind? Well, I put bell boots behind on Puerto becuase I dont want to take a chance of him stepping on himself behind in lateral movements. Its to much money to lose if he gets hurt. I know a lot of trainers that do that for that reason. Look at other horses as well, Brookhouse stud stallion, they are also extravagant movers - http://www.brookhousestud.com/2007/ Not to mention Ankys horses, etc. Also the movers at - http://www.klatte.de/pages/hengste.html And Soasath - http://www.klatte.de/pages/hengste.html Im not talking of the young horses, Im talking of the confirmed grand prix horses that have been conditioned to the point of being able to hold the power and cadence for that level of work. Maybe its the new breeding and the new type that is finally showing through to be able to offer those movements.

STF said: Please don't make comments like these unless you have proof. It just gives dressage a bad name. My trainer spent several years in top dressage barns in Europe and never saw anything like this. Her own international gp horse has fantastic hind leg action and I can promise you it was NOT from the use of any kind of gadget. The reason these horses cost millions of euro and are not often sold is because they are BORN with this movement. THANK YOU!!!:yes:

c*nyonoak said: Yes, I for one am POSITIVE that Andreas Helgstrand (what could he possibly know about international competition, what he needs to succeed,etc) has picked out a stallion that naturally moves out behind himself, is unlevel and irregular, has been trained with weighted boots, and has no suspension. Which of course, he would know nothing about anyway because... well, someone else can finish that sentence. And the next. And the next. Which is not to say that Carabas is my favorite horse or the type I look for...and of course is not to say that Andreas has--despite the announcement that this will be his future Olympic horse--not a plan to sell this one down the road. IIRC, the plan behind his new barn was to find top-level young horses, finish the training, and sell them. Just a thought.

*SB Stars said: Well, I just love him! :winkgrin: But I do know where are of you extra talented DQ's can get a great deal on those ASB gimmicks, so that each and every one of your horses will not only be schooled just as well as all of Andreas' horses, du to your superior talents, but they'll actually MOVE like them. In fact, if I didn't tink it was one of the most disgusting accusations I'd heard in a long time, I would open a store, just for you, so that I could capitalize on your sheer brilliance. But never, never at the expense of the horses. Sorry.

r*dgeback said: all those derogitory comments from some of you posters...Are you jealous ? I don't know where anyone see's a "Carriage Horse" or "Saddlebred" type horse. I can faintly see the Friesen silouette in the video. Why can't you people just be happy for someone on their new aquisition ? And for those warmblood owners (which I am one) if you go back far enough in their pedigree they've ALL pulled a friggin' cart up and down a road somewhere ! go gettim' Andreas and Carabas ! ! SIGH. gee whiz the horse does move like a saddlebred/carriage horse in the sense if he got an more knee action he could compete against them.:lol: I just think it is odd on how they are breeding these dressage horses to move like that...:eek:

*SB Stars said: SIGH. gee whiz the horse does move like a saddlebred/carriage horse in the sense if he got an more knee action he could compete against them.:lol: I just think it is odd on how they are breeding these dressage horses to move like that...:eek: Could it be that the more flamobouyant movers, who are also correctly trained are bringing more money at the auctions because they are what is winning at the highest levels? Hmmm... I remember the first time I saw a video of Rohdiamant and Relevant. It seems to me that they were two examples of the trend that has become todays dressage International paradigm. Years ago, the warmbloods that were winning also looked lke they could pull stumps. Times change. Lighter and hotter, more range of motion, and what we call "oily" moving horses- those who have seamless movement, as opposed to the staccato extensions of times gone by- are what Europe is dictating will be the standard. I see alot of frowns out there- but heck, anyone can win the lottery, right?

jd*boer01 said: Here's a different video, for everyone's viewing pleasure. :) http://www.pro-stallions.com/stallions/Carabas.wmv

n*rcisco said: I know it's opening a big can of worms, but several studies (Clayton below) have been done to show the benefits of using weighted boots and chains for variable strength training in dressage. We are coming from the American saddleseat tradition, lumping those devices into the same cruelty category with ginger, tailsetting, and soring. In Europe, they don't have the same history and probably would be surprised at your reactions. I am not saying it's cruel, not cruel, good, bad, or that it's being done in this case, just that it is done much more commonly in Europe than in America. http://www.albertahorseindustry.ca/hboc/2004/proceedings/footing_shoeing.pdf http://www.stoneycreektack.com/davisweightedbell.html

Dr*ssage Art said: I'll pass on him. Quite a fetch from a classical dressage horse. Too much of knee action and ridden in a very short frame, too much behind the vertical for me. His hind legs do not over track, since his front legs are so busy with throwing his knees above his elbows. Looks more like a circus horse rather than a correct dressage horse to me... but it seems "that's what people want!" (cry... for where competitive dressage is heading...) PS: he looks more correct on jdeboer01's video at a show.

*SB Stars said: I do not happen to believe that "stretchies", when appropriately used, are in any way cruel. They are a fabulous way of building elasticity and range of motion- they develop a horses natural ability in a way that does no harm- when correctly applied. My concern is grouping all of this together, and putting it in the hands of people who do not have any idea how to use these tools. They have to be adjusted properly, applied properly, used properly. For that, someone needs to educate you. As it happens, the SS people KNOW how to use them, because it is part of the training, and is handed down. Action chains, weighted boots, and the like are also tools. They will not fix a horse who cannot move correctly, but they will enhance a horse who needs that type of help. But the bottom line is that a horse who is not built to move like this, or predisposed to have this type of movement isn't going to. So to state that it is created, sui generis, is absurd.

n2dr*ssage said: I want one of his babies! Of course I'd have to save for many years and buy one in utero to be able to afford it! One can always dream though...

q*ietann said: oooo, nice horse!

s*egi b. said: Quote by Narcisco.... "I am not saying it's cruel, not cruel, good, bad, or that it's being done in this case, just that it is done much more commonly in Europe than in America." And you know this because....???? You have trained horses in Europe for years? You're in constant contact with top trainers in Germany? Please share......

s*lah said: I know it's opening a big can of worms, but several studies (Clayton below) have been done to show the benefits of using weighted boots and chains for variable strength training in dressage. We are coming from the American saddleseat tradition, lumping those devices into the same cruelty category with ginger, tailsetting, and soring. In Europe, they don't have the same history and probably would be surprised at your reactions. I am not saying it's cruel, not cruel, good, bad, or that it's being done in this case, just that it is done much more commonly in Europe than in America. http://www.albertahorseindustry.ca/hboc/2004/proceedings/footing_shoeing.pdf http://www.stoneycreektack.com/davisweightedbell.html In the above mentioned article (not a study), the last 2 sentences on page 4 are as follows: Use of such devices is more effective and safer during slow speed (collected) work. During high speed exercise (extended gaits) there is a risk that the horse may lose control of hoof placement as a consequence of not compensating for the increased momentum as the limb swings forward. So kids, don't try this at home!!!:no:

fr*estyle2music said: I'll pass on him. Quite a fetch from a classical dressage horse. Too much of knee action and ridden in a very short frame, too much behind the vertical for me. His hind legs do not over track, since his front legs are so busy with throwing his knees above his elbows. Looks more like a circus horse rather than a correct dressage horse to me... but it seems "that's what people want!" (cry... for where competitive dressage is heading...) PS: he looks more correct on jdeboer01's video at a show. [edit] As somebody else already posted on this forum; Andreas, his trainer and sponsors don't have any idea what a good horse is :confused:

STF said: The new breeding type started a bit ago, and now we are seeing them go into the upper levels (10+yrs in the making). The Sandro Hits, Belissimo's, Londonderry, etc, with the more extravagant and lighter movements, which I, personally, like better. I dont like the old style freight trains that are heavy anymore. Ive ridden both types now and my poor back wants the modern horses. So if that makes me a standardbredhackneysaddblebred lover than so be it.

J-L* said: I don't think he looks anything like Chacomo :eek: Chacomo had tons of suspension, and the movement came from the back and hind end. . .do you see that in this horse :confused: ? Here is one video I could find of Chacomo (there are probably better ones) - i do, with the front end. Like I said. Chacomo had a good hind end but he often didn't overtrack at extended trot. But he had alot of knee action/shoulder reach. This horse isn't *nearly* as developed as Chocomo was in the videos posted or when he was a seasoned GP competitor, which is why I said he might resemble him more as he ages/strengthens. my opinion. :) ETA: People talk about a "breeding trend" for this movement- I also think that exceptional individuals, whatever the breeding, are recognized and developed according to their talents. This horse clearly has talent - who in their right mind would pass on him because he has exaggerated knee action? I'd take him in a heartbeat!

R*gersChapelFarm said: I agree on the short frame, short neck, ridden behind vertical. If ridden in the ring that way he'd be penalized but we all know that this is common to see in training and then they come up and out more to show. I love the horse otherwise. I bet if allowed a little freer up thru the poll and kept the nose toward the toe he'd be correct and LOVELY too!

n*rcisco said: And you know this because....???? You have trained horses in Europe for years? You're in constant contact with top trainers in Germany? Please share...... Why would I bother to share anything with someone with such [an] attitude?

Dr*ssage Art said: Theo [edit] Issue is not about quality of those horses, but about how they are trained. You are correct. I do not support RollKur. You on the other hand SPONSOR RollKur family (RollKur pony). So it's clear where your preference is. [edit] let me make it very clear for you: I do not support Roll Kur or chains or any other extensive gadgets use - no matter how much they win in the show ring, no matter how much flash their horses get from that kind of training. This training is done for the greed of people not for the wellbeing of horses. I really hope that the future of judging will always be on the side of the horses wellbeing, not on the side winning by any means.

cl*ire said: Theo, [edit]. Issue is not about quality of those horses, but about how they are trained. You are correct. I do not support RollKur. You on the other hand SPONSOR RollKur family (RollKur pony). So it's clear where your preference is. [edit] let me make it very clear for you: I do not support Roll Kur or chains or any other extensive gadgets use - no matter how much they win in the show ring, no matter how much flash their horses get from that kind of training. This training is done for the greed of people not for the wellbeing of horses. I really hope that the future of judging will always be on the side of the horses wellbeing, not on the side winning by any means. Thanks DressageArt excellent post. :yes: I hope your beliefs are more typical of current and future judges.

T*uchstone Farm said: I am not going to make a statement of whether the Europeans use weighted bell boots or the stretchy cords to get the movement. (I know there are some Americans who do.) But...having watched saddlebreds being trained with the stretchy cords, it seems to me that they are pulling against it with their back inverted, resulting in horses with extravagant movement but upside down ways of going. In addition, having done some PT on my own body with the stretchy cords, if I did not do it properly when attached to my legs, I could feel the pull in my back -- pulling my back in a concave fashion. Not what the doctor ordered! :-) I knew that was improper and could adjust how I held my body...but a horse? Personally I'd rather learn to ride correctly than use the short cuts just to win. (And just because it wins, doesn't mean it's correct. Look at the QH halter horses. No offense QH lovers!) But hey, that's just me...and I'm not jealous...and I'm making NO comments about this stallion because I can't open the video on my Mac to see it. :-)

c*nyonoak said: Oliver Luze--the trainer and rider of Carabas since he was started--is a very professional and correct rider. The idea that anyone here believes that Carabas and his performance is the result of anything other than a lot of long, hard work and patience used to take a horse's basic talents and USE that to create a performance animal...that idea is a pity, because it demeans professional trainers everywhwere. The idea that the 'round action' this horse shows is in any way related to Saddlebred or other English Pleasure can only find a nano-grain of truth if one also believes this horse has his back locked/dropped. Because the Eng. Pleasure way of going is based upon big front, locked back, big swing hind leg and very little flexion/engagement behind. That, of course, is not dressage motion and to link Carabas to such movement is...a misapplication, IMHO. One way is not good or bad, they are ,simply, very different. Carabas is a very talented GP horse, which is how he came to do so well in Medien Cup. The judges there are some of the best we have, and they also saw--and scored--this horse's potential as well as what he showed on the day. Not once or twice, but around ten different shows over 2008. I got to see Oliver Luze ride years ago...I now spare a moment to wonder just how much the announced sale of this horse had to do with his decision to leave Gestut Tannenhof. Horses like this do not come often in the life of a trainer--not unless you are one of the handful that have mega-backing as does Helgstrand.

C*reene said: Big interview in Bit magazine with Helstrand in which he says he does not use hyperflexion. Just because someone is from Europe doesn't mean they do it, just because someone is from the US doesn't mean they don't. Just sayin'.

n*ro said: With that knee action I thought him a bit reminiscent of a baroque horse, and aren't they the 'ultimate' classical dressage horse? I like him, although a horse like Quaterback or Chacamo with their wonderful cadence and suspension are/were more my type. I look forward to seeing him compete under Andreas. With some extra strength I think his p and p will be wonderful.

*ndyblue said: Here's a different video, for everyone's viewing pleasure. :) http://www.pro-stallions.com/stallions/Carabas.wmv Who is riding him in this video?

ch*ekyhorse said: I like a modern lighter type horse too, that's why I breed and ride Trakehners. However, THIS particular horse, is NOT my type. I don't like horses that move staccato like with their front ends like that and have nothing going on behind. (which this horse does not) I am not fond of the Sandro Hit horses either for this same reason. This type of horse, I do like...... VERY much. http://www.video.springwelten.de/wmverden/2008/imperio_3.htm Light, modern but uses every inch of it's body when it moves. Still has lots of action, but the action is throughout, not just the knees.

jd*boer01 said: Who is riding him in this video? I have no idea... I googled the stallion's name and found this video. I dislike that the video appears distorted somewhat. I disagree that Sandro Hit offspring move "stacatto". Have you never seen video of Poetin? I wish I could find one to post right now. Why not check out Swarovski. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pJ5s4Pw7Fw I don't consider this "stacatto". When I think of "stacatto" in movement terms, I think of the Iberian horses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myiIGv2Gwjk&feature=PlayList&p=527E6C7C43A3705A&playnext=1&index=21 Judy

*ndyblue said: I was just interested as his knee action seems alot less pronounced yet the rider is riding with a very strong hand which I would of thought would make it worse. I see no evidence of dragging the back feet while in extension that someone mentioned.

ch*ekyhorse said: Judy, let me reword this. This particular horse....the one in the OP moves staccato like with his front end. In fact there is not a lot of difference between the way he moves and the way some iberians move, but the difference is with his engagement. He has little engagement behind - he is what I call a front end type of mover. There are certain bloodlines of the modern type warmbloods we are seeing today - Sandro Hit being one of those - that move with extravagant front ends and their back legs move out behind them instead of stepping under. It partly has to do with the training, but mostly it has to do with the breeding/bloodlines of the horses.

s*nnenschein said: I like a modern lighter type horse too, that's why I breed and ride Trakehners. However, THIS particular horse, is NOT my type. I don't like horses that move staccato like with their front ends like that and have nothing going on behind. (which this horse does not) I am not fond of the Sandro Hit horses either for this same reason. This type of horse, I do like...... VERY much. http://www.video.springwelten.de/wmverden/2008/imperio_3.htm Light, modern but uses every inch of it's body when it moves. Still has lots of action, but the action is throughout, not just the knees. Nice horse to watch but looks back-breaking to sit that trot! :eek:

ch*ekyhorse said: LOL! for sure. Too much for me to sit, but the pros would like him. That horse won the Bundeschampionat 2008 and the silver medal at the world breeding championships for young horses that year as well. He scored VERY highly - some of the highest scores seen. http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08bundes/rep_final5yo.html he is quite something, I hope that they don't just retire him to stud now though, it would be nice to see him get on with a career....but we know how things work in Germany.

*ndy-lou said: This horse has unique movement for certain. I personally would not liken it to Sandro Hit type movement, though I can understand the temptation to do so. This guy has his own style, it's like the hind end is along for the ride. Front end allegro, back end legato (forgive me if I messed up my music terminology!) I don't dislike it, wouldn't sing it's praises either, but it's just interesting, even fascinating to watch. At least he doesn't wing or paddle all over the place, which I find really distracting. Good luck to them, they will be ones to watch for.

Bl*e Domino said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E0bl2bxt5g&feature=related Here's a nice arabian park stallion, breed your mares to him for Carabas movement at a fraction of the cost.

*ndyblue said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E0bl2bxt5g&feature=related Here's a nice arabian park stallion, breed your mares to him for Carabas movement at a fraction of the cost. And sell it for a fraction of the price of a Carabas LOL

D*scobold said: :eek: :eek: :eek: I remember why I mostly lurk here. Comparing Carabas to an Arabian park stallion is ABSURD. . .but so is implying that anyone who doesn't drool over him is saying that he's not an international-caliber horse or that Andreas doesn't know what he's doing. Surely, there is room in dressage for personal taste :yes: I love the horse in the video cheekyhorse posted :cool:

c*ffyl said: I think they're used very, very commonly in Europe these days, no sin. And they result in movement like that. Why else would you put bell boots behind? Go one tell us just who in Europe uses them, you know you want to impress us. :yes::rolleyes: And :rolleyes: just WHAT are bell boots for in the first place??? Go on hazard a guess as to why you use bell boots behind (other than as you think to influence movement).

M*derator 1 said: Please avoid the personal commentary. We've edited or removed several posts. Keep the discussion focused on the relavant topics, not other posters--if you disagree with statements made, discuss the differences of opinion themselves vs. making comments about the person with whom you disagree. Thanks, Mod 1

M*rle said: I'll pass on him. Quite a fetch from a classical dressage horse. Too much of knee action and ridden in a very short frame, too much behind the vertical for me. His hind legs do not over track, since his front legs are so busy with throwing his knees above his elbows. Looks more like a circus horse rather than a correct dressage horse to me... but it seems "that's what people want!" (cry... for where competitive dressage is heading...) PS: he looks more correct on jdeboer01's video at a show. I agree, DressageArt. To each his own.

XH*lt said: I like a modern lighter type horse too, that's why I breed and ride Trakehners. However, THIS particular horse, is NOT my type. I don't like horses that move staccato like with their front ends like that and have nothing going on behind. (which this horse does not) I am not fond of the Sandro Hit horses either for this same reason. This type of horse, I do like...... VERY much. http://www.video.springwelten.de/wmverden/2008/imperio_3.htm Light, modern but uses every inch of it's body when it moves. Still has lots of action, but the action is throughout, not just the knees. I love him too. Although I'm a bit biased as the owner of a Connery daughter. :) It is hard to compare a 5 yo to a GP horse though. How much of that swing will remain? So much is training. More front leg can be just training too. It would be interesting to see a video of Carabas as a 5yo, I bet he looks a lot different.

STF said: Go one tell us just who in Europe uses them, you know you want to impress us. :yes::rolleyes: And :rolleyes: just WHAT are bell boots for in the first place??? Go on hazard a guess as to why you use bell boots behind (other than as you think to influence movement). Because with one that has that big of movements and such, the last thing you want them to do is clip themself while moving sideways, doing piroettes, etc. etc. I know a lot of people in the states who do this and they dont use gagets either. Its not an uncommon practice from riders who cant take a chance of the horse hurting themselves.

STF said: I agree, DressageArt. To each his own. I agree and this goes to really show the difference in judging and now judging is not stardard. DressageArt is saying she/he is a judge, but does not like or prefer this and would prob. give lower marks for this horse, but yet others (per this horses show record) have given this horse outstanding scores to Grand Prix. So, what gives......... :no:

gr*yarabpony said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E0bl2bxt5g&feature=related Here's a nice arabian park stallion, breed your mares to him for Carabas movement at a fraction of the cost. No thanks.

jd*boer01 said: Judy, let me reword this. This particular horse....the one in the OP moves staccato like with his front end. In fact there is not a lot of difference between the way he moves and the way some iberians move, but the difference is with his engagement. He has little engagement behind - he is what I call a front end type of mover. There are certain bloodlines of the modern type warmbloods we are seeing today - Sandro Hit being one of those - that move with extravagant front ends and their back legs move out behind them instead of stepping under. It partly has to do with the training, but mostly it has to do with the breeding/bloodlines of the horses. I guess we just see a different visual application of musical terminology. For me, when I visualize "staccato" it is with movement that has a faster tempo, and no suspension. A "tap tap tap" rapid-fire type movement -- not considering knee action or engagement. A Paso Fino, for me, would be an EXTREME example. (I could not stop LAUGHING when I watched this video!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Ma9XFS55g And the opposite, "legato", for me, would be the type of flowing movement with slower more relaxed tempo -- like in the video you posted. Or like this, with Stedinger. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KWrgp9rQss It looks almost like his front legs are floating upwards -- like buttuh!

sm said: I agree and this goes to really show the difference in judging and now judging is not stardard. DressageArt is saying she/he is a judge, but does not like or prefer this and would prob. give lower marks for this horse, but yet others (per this horses show record) have given this horse outstanding scores to Grand Prix. So, what gives......... :no: "What gives" is there are different brands of dressage and the FEI Brand at the international level has long been rewarding hyper movement on the front end while overlooking other criteria of correct movement. So this trend will be around as long as the FEI judges reward it. I am glad Carabas is supple, relaxed and with wonderful self-expression of his unique character. Not that easy to accomplish these days at his level. There's been too many frenzied robotic rides that have been rewarded... don't get me started, there should have been zeros in some free walks that looked three-legged lame with the neck never stretching out of a collected frame. So take good care of this treasure, Andreas. Best of luck!!

fr*estyle2music said: Theo [edit] Issue is not about quality of those horses, but about how they are trained. You are correct. I do not support RollKur. You on the other hand SPONSOR RollKur family (RollKur pony). So it's clear where your preference is. [edit] let me make it very clear for you: I do not support Roll Kur or chains or any other extensive gadgets use - no matter how much they win in the show ring, no matter how much flash their horses get from that kind of training. This training is done for the greed of people not for the wellbeing of horses. I really hope that the future of judging will always be on the side of the horses wellbeing, not on the side winning by any means. How do you know the trainingmethods of Andreas :mad: I don't have family that rides ponies :no:, nor train or support Rollkür :mad: I quit posting on this board, since the TOB-clique seem to have invaded COTH. Happy Newyear

Dr*ssage Art said: I agree and this goes to really show the difference in judging and now judging is not stardard. DressageArt is saying she/he is a judge, but does not like or prefer this and would prob. give lower marks for this horse, but yet others (per this horses show record) have given this horse outstanding scores to Grand Prix. So, what gives......... :no: Just a clarification: I never claimed to be a licensed judge. I graduated with distinction from the USDF "L" judging program. This is the very first step of becoming a judge in US, but doesn't allow judging licensed shows. USDF recommends "L" graduates for judging schooling shows and publishes a list in the USDF directory and GMO. In the last 2 years I judged about a dozen+ schooling shows - that's all of my judging credentials. Here on COTH we have several "L" graduates like me, who judge schooling shows. I think we have 2-3 licensed judges who post here on COTH as well. Licensed judges are a big step above "L" judging graduates: they have much more credentials & experience. From my personal experience, some judges do not agree with each other, since everybody comes from a different background. The difference is that judges are supposed to come to a civil and intelligent agreement and respect each other's point of views. I saw it done with dignity among US judges. As for European judges, they do not have a structured judging education as US has, so they can bring even more diverse opinions to the judging table. Some European countries are looking to adopt US judging training program, since it’s proving to be helpful in standardizing judging scores outcome.

c*nyonoak said: Dressage is a subjective sport; therefore, we all understand that judging is subjective as well. Judging is subjective, training is subjective, riding is subjective, etc etc. But, as we all know, there have to be some boundaries, some rules, some foundation, some standards: inside the box is good, outside the box is Not Good. So here is my inside the box: Carabas is not my favorite horse in the world or even favorite of the moment BUT can eaily see his potential, his gifts, his talent and why Helgstrand got his backers to part with the Big Bucks. I do not see the unevenness, the irregularity, the weak back, the other glaring flaws some have noted. I see a horse that has power and expression in his gaits, good rhythm and balance, gets a bit slow with hind legs and goes a bit croup high, as umpteen other horses also at the top have done, and am sure as a stallion, this one also likes to lock his back and protect the family jewels. Nevertheless, in the pirouette for canter, it is easy to see the horse will develop the necessary strength to perform small pirouettes with collection and without losing the forward; in the pi-pa, it is easy to see the talent and how the scores will be high; in the flexibility and suppleness, it is easy to see how this will develop further. I do not think any judge can give this horse much less than 8 on most movements AS SHOWN, and would imagine that any judge who did so would be pulled aside by Judge at C and asked for an explanation. Naturally, the horse within a performance will get less than 8 in some places, because if a horse gets straight 8s during a test--usually the Dressage Gods descend and create a glitch of some sort. And now: why not go to www.pro-stallions.com and pick another video for dissection? Or discussion , LOL.

STF said: And now: why not go to www.pro-stallions.com (http://www.pro-stallions.com/) and pick another video for dissection? Or discussion , LOL. Exactly, someone will find something wrong with anything you post on here.

D*lemma said: I really liked him but thought he had lots of knee action in the front and was way more animated up front then he was behind.......felt is was disproportionate. But he is lovely to watch. Dalemma

b*rt84 said: Woo, just gotta say, I really do like that horse... Perhaps it is my saddlebred background... Horses that move like that I just think often have an easier time with the upper level movements. I mean, if you've got a horse that naturally has springy, cadenced, extreme movement, he's likely to have a much easier time doing a piaffe/passage/pirouette (if he can keep his brain together, haha). I keep telling everybody that saddlebreds or saddlebred crosses are the next big thing! See!? Haha, mostly kidding, as nobody listens when I say such a thing, so I don't say it very often = ) I do realize he is not to everyone's taste though. But I think horses with that kind of motion that can retain as pleasant of an attitude as this one seems to have are totally wonderful in the upper levels. It's okay if the movement seems a little more "extreme" if they're born to do it that way and are trained to be balanced and correct. I can tell you from experience that they don't always need gadgets to make them move like that. But if he can't do the tests as well as a horse that doesn't move quite like that, then he obviously shouldn't score better. I think there is room for more than one type in dressage. Seemed like there is starting to be a bit more variety in the upper levels. I'm a little newer to dressage, so I'm still interested as to why people get so upset about a extra leg motion. As long as the horse is actually moving his body and shoulders and is overall correct, is it really a big deal? I guess people are upset about the extreme movers that are incorrect and still getting rewarded for it? That's certainly fair. But seriously, this guy looks like a WB/saddlebred cross... Me likey = )

*SB Stars said: I keep telling everybody that saddlebreds or saddlebred crosses are the next big thing! See!? Haha, mostly kidding, as nobody listens when I say such a thing, so I don't say it very often = ) I'm listening- keep banging that drum!!! :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

Sp*ctrum said: I realize that many EP horses do travel with an inverted back, but please know that some do not. ;) The point of MY comment was to say that the action on that horse was very much ideal for English Pleasure horses - and definitely looks different from what I have seen in dressage classes over the past several years. I am not saying the stallion isn't lovely - but rather that his action doesn't seem to be what the "norm" used to be in dressage. :) I'm sorry, but this horse's trot work is not very good. Flashy up front, but his back is completely dropped and hollow with very little push from behind. Spectrum.

b*rt84 said: Haha, well hopefuly Andreas will be able to get him up to speed = ) Looks like he's got a lot of potential at the very least. One of the things I like most about him is that he's able to move in an exciting way (yes, perhaps it could use some tweaking) and still maintain a happy relaxed attitude. I hate it when GP horses constantly wring their tail and have their ears pressed back (no, I refuse to believe they're just listening...) This guy looks fairly pleasant, all things considered. And no tail wringing yet, yay! Though he is a bit overflexed... another constant at the top levels it seems. Oh well. He is just a horse with just a man aboard after all. You can't always expect perfection I suppose.

h*ssy35 said: Wow nice saddlebred:lol::lol: ha ha.... you can't help but wonder sometimes if they are weighting their hooves while in training... It's almost unnatural to have sooo much knee action.

swg*rasu said: And the opposite, "legato", for me, would be the type of flowing movement with slower more relaxed tempo -- like in the video you posted. Or like this, with Stedinger. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KWrgp9rQss It looks almost like his front legs are floating upwards -- like buttuh! Heehee, I laughed at the PF video too- I've never seen them before. I like the second video you posted (Stedinger) the best out of all the ones in this thread... I think on this board we get to see a lot of videos of extremes. Sometimes it worries me, untill I realize people won't usually post the norm.

p*titefilly said: I'm sorry, but this horse's trot work is not very good. Flashy up front, but his back is completely dropped and hollow with very little push from behind. . This will change with Andreas. It will take about six months to get the horse over his back and more "together". The horse has more natural talent than it knows what to do with, and his trainers have pushed him too fast. The talent has to be tempered with over the back work. I predict the horse will look entirely different this time next year! (you heard it here first)

S*sterToSoreFoot said: I don't see anything wrong with this horse in dressage, but I worry sometimes that people can mistake this type of rolling, snapping knee movement for collection, simply because it is so up and down. A flatter moving horse is no less capable of collection becuase he moves outward more. I sort of wish we had more models of flatter, naturally sweeping moving horses in high collection to give us another visual of correctness.

Shr*nk "N" Da Wash said: Wow nice saddlebred:lol::lol: lmao that's what I thought.... I like knee action but not quite that much. However he's very lovely and I'm sure he will improve with Andreas!:yes:

c*nyonoak said: Yes, this all makes sense to me now: Andreas Helgstrand looked all over Europe for a horse for upcoming Euros, WEG and beyond. He has years of experience, a huge checkbook at his disposal, and is considered an excellent rider... So of course he went out and got himself a horse with poor training, no schwung in its back, weak hind legs, and...what else? Oh yes, Saddlebred tendencies. I hope everyone here takes the time to write to Mr. Helgstrand to tell him what a poor choice he has made. But wait! There's more! You will have to write to all the judges as well -- this horse has about a 70% average from the 10 young horse Grand Prixs he performed this year! ROFLMAO

C*reene said: Yes, this all makes sense to me now: Andreas Helgstrand looked all over Europe for a horse for upcoming Euros, WEG and beyond. He has years of experience, a huge checkbook at his disposal, and is considered an excellent rider... So of course he went out and got himself a horse with poor training, no schwung in its back, weak hind legs, and...what else? Oh yes, Saddlebred tendencies. I hope everyone here takes the time to write to Mr. Helgstrand to tell him what a poor choice he has made. But wait! There's more! You will have to write to all the judges as well -- this horse has about a 70% average from the 10 young horse Grand Prixs he performed this year! ROFLMAO Amen, sister! Because, really, just shoot me now, ya know?

cr*zyhorses said: I love that horse. My mare has quite a bit of knee action as well. She is a Holsteiner and has some bloodlines like his. She does great in dressage :) Y'all are jealous you don't have a horse with knee action :yes:

S*bine said: Yes, this all makes sense to me now: Andreas Helgstrand looked all over Europe for a horse for upcoming Euros, WEG and beyond. He has years of experience, a huge checkbook at his disposal, and is considered an excellent rider... So of course he went out and got himself a horse with poor training, no schwung in its back, weak hind legs, and...what else? Oh yes, Saddlebred tendencies. I hope everyone here takes the time to write to Mr. Helgstrand to tell him what a poor choice he has made. But wait! There's more! You will have to write to all the judges as well -- this horse has about a 70% average from the 10 young horse Grand Prixs he performed this year! ROFLMAO seeing the light- eh...just in front of our eyes..and cheap..just need to learn how to train that...yup!!

M*P said: Yes, this all makes sense to me now: Andreas Helgstrand looked all over Europe for a horse for upcoming Euros, WEG and beyond. He has years of experience, a huge checkbook at his disposal, and is considered an excellent rider... So of course he went out and got himself a horse with poor training, no schwung in its back, weak hind legs, and...what else? Oh yes, Saddlebred tendencies. I hope everyone here takes the time to write to Mr. Helgstrand to tell him what a poor choice he has made. But wait! There's more! You will have to write to all the judges as well -- this horse has about a 70% average from the 10 young horse Grand Prixs he performed this year! ROFLMAO Thank you for saying this! I know people get very carried away in what they see, but some of the conclusions people jump to just amaze me. Oliver Luze is a very classical trainer, Carabas won the Median Cup final for young grand prix horses at Donaueschingen in September - it was a big deal! 2008 Medien Cup Finals - Finals Class 1. Tannenhof's Carabas- Luze, Oliver - 72.250 % (Germany) 2. First Class - Werth, Isabell - 71.300 % (Germany) and, an additional observation: This video was probably one of the first times Andreas probably even sat on the horse. It's a new combination and will take a while to develop a true partnership. Jeez Louise folks. :confused:

B*llfleur said: Darn and here I was thinking I could just run out and get me a saddlebred cross, slap that dressage saddle on it and then sell it for the big bucks:lol::lol::lol: Canyonoak perfect observation!!! Thank you! Lovely horse, lovely rider

b*rt84 said: Haha, it's true. He is a lovely horse, and I can't wait to see him develop = ) Shoot, I'd still like a nice saddlebred cross though, haha. That's next after my appaloosa experiment.

Fr*esianX said: Yes, this all makes sense to me now: Andreas Helgstrand looked all over Europe for a horse for upcoming Euros, WEG and beyond. He has years of experience, a huge checkbook at his disposal, and is considered an excellent rider... So of course he went out and got himself a horse with poor training, no schwung in its back, weak hind legs, and...what else? Oh yes, Saddlebred tendencies. I hope everyone here takes the time to write to Mr. Helgstrand to tell him what a poor choice he has made. But wait! There's more! You will have to write to all the judges as well -- this horse has about a 70% average from the 10 young horse Grand Prixs he performed this year! ROFLMAO Yep, COTH posters could have found him a much more suitable horse. Preferrably one that didn't look like a Friesian or Saddlebred cross :lol::eek::lol::eek: After all, collectively, we MUST have more international competition experience, right? Right? And who the heck wants to compete internationally with a horse who has flair, bleah :lol::lol::lol: I think he's lovely - of course, I also love Friesian crosses:cool:. He's a young, flashy, elegant, eye-catching, athletic, talented horse. And I'd predict that we'll see and hear a lot about the horse under Andreas' expert tutelage. ETA OK, I made the mistake of going back and reading the other 4 pages (2 - 5). Is it so horrible that someone with international experience picks a horse with flair, a horse that perhaps envokes an image of a Baroque horse? That the common person might enjoy watching, instead of equating dressage with watching paint dry? For the purist who feels knee movement is such a bad thing - remember, dressage originated with the Baroque breeds, who do have more knee action. And, while you personally may enjoy the flatter kneed horses, many people enjoy the flair of a Baroque horse. Does anyone remember when SRS actually did tour w/ their horses - several light years ago? The stadiums would be packed with people, both knowledgeable dressage people, and others who simply wanted to watch and enjoy. To make dressage more mainstream enjoyable could benefit many of us - more money, more sponsorships, maybe even viewable on mainstream TV! More training opportunities, including for lower level riders and juniors? Is this a sell out of our sport, or a good thing? I think it would be a positive! If you watch this horse's hind end (heck, cover up the front end), he is still stepping under behind. I hate those front toe flipping horses who are walking behind, or get very wide behind (I'm not namin' any names), but that is not the case with this horse. In front, he lifts his shoulder beautifully - he just adds some knee action as well. He is a younger horse - sure he can work on more relaxation in the back and be a bit softer in the neck, but give him a few years - these are big show venues, he will improve in this area. Very cool horse - yeah, I'll admit, I have a fondness for Friesian crosses, and he actually reminds me very much of a couple of crosses I know... But he's obviously talented, and he just has a flair that is exciting to watch. God forbid dressage be exciting, hahahahaha...

b*rt84 said: @FriesianX - just wanted to say I agree with basically everything you said = ) I looove a leg waver! I think it's so much more appealing to watch a horse with beautiful round rolling motion than the ones that have to toe flip (they call it "pea shooting" in the arab world...) And I agree that a horse with a little more flair to his motion makes dressage more exciting to watch. I'm obviously a little jaded because I grew up showing saddleseat and absolutely adore the saddlebred as a breed and do miss the excitement at the shows. So I say, what's wrong with a little excitment in dressage? Bring it on Andreas! I LOVE this horse!!! Maybe they let me breed him to a dressage-y type saddlebred and we'll see what we get, haha. And also, I did go see the SRS when they were in Houston a couple of years ago... amaaaaazing! Sure, the lipizzan is not my ideal horse type, but they are just perfect for the SRS performances. I love to see all types of horses excel at dressage, and I think adding more excitement to the ring is a good thing as long as we don't lose quality in the process. They're the pros, after all, so wow us!