Related Fieldhouse Saddles information

Excersises for shoulder-in

k*hjul said: So, we have a sucky shoulder in. Not enough angle, get a bend in the neck. There have been many other more important issues that the trainer has been tackling, so this has been ignored for a while. Last week, at my lesson, we revisited it and it's NOT GOOD!!! When we insist on a straight neck, witha bit more angle-still not alot, but more-we get a ton of resistance. I can tell it's just really tough for my horse. Today I tried asking for just 3 or 4 strides, then going into a 10m circle, than another 3 or 4 and circle. It seemed to help and my hope is to add more steps between the circles. What excersises work for you? I know there are many different steps to the goal, so bring 'em on!

G*cci Cowgirl said: most of the SI's I see are actually leg yields, even in the FEI tests at shows. When I feel like I have more angle than I have bend through the ribs and shoulders, I do a half 10 m circle, then straight ahead for one or 2 steps, then a LY , half 10 m circle again, and keep that shape for the shoulder in. when you lose the bend, and feel the haunches start to push out towards the wall, and the inside rib get heavy on your leg, don't try to fix it by pushing and pulling. the second it falls apart, straighten, ride your 1/2 10m circle, LY, 1/2 10 m circle, then SI again. struggling to salvage a SI when it has turned into a LY doesn't work, the balance is lost and you will just get fristrated. start over and set it up again...and straighten in the SI before your horse loses his balance/connection even when the SI is going well. don't set your horse up to fail every time. they tend to get upset by this. also, what I find helps bend immensly, is doing a lot of haunches in in walk, trot, and canter both ways, with almost as much angle/bend as you can get without ruining the gait or the rhythm. this really helps horses get supple, and it transfers into the SI very well IMHO

W*ndsongEq said: some preparatory exercises.... Leg yielding nose to the wall-the wall keeps the horse from going forward out of the exercise, transitions walk, trot while in the leg yield makes sure the horse stays between your longitudinal aids, a bit more angle, a bit less angle helps you confirm your diagonal aids, change flexion slightly left and right while staying with the correct angle, helps horse learn to straighten on the outer rein and rider to be independant with their seat and hands. Turn on the forehand, ride a 10 M circle, when you get to the wall and are beginning to come off the wall halt. Do this a few times, then when you apply the shoulder in aids, use a hh just after the horse has the proper angle to send him down the long side. From what you are describing, I am thinking that you are getting too much neck bend, not enough angle. Your instructor sounds like she is helping you learn how to keep the shoulder from popping to the outside by using straightening aids. Eventually you should be able to ride a correct shoulder in with some even bend. If you ride it with too straight a neck in competition, it is a leg yield.

G*cci Cowgirl said: If you ride it with too straight a neck in competition, it is a leg yield. Technically, if the hind legs cross it is considered a leg yield...nothing to do with the neck! (as I was reminded by Axel Steiner when I rode a 4th level horse in a lesson with him a month ago...ouch!) your halt out of the 10 m circle idea is good..I'll have to add it to my toolbox!

*deayoda said: Try doing 10m on the 3/4 line, then shoulder FORE for a few strides, and then shoulder in entwicheln (?spelling) to the wall, then continue in shoulder fore, then follow the neck toward the 3/4 (straightening) and restart the sf or si on the 3/4 line, then back to the wall in sf/si entwicheln (si positioning such rather like LY 'in position of s.i.. The exercise allows the best of all worlds: sf or si, horse really going into the outside rein, but greater mobility and reach with the shoulders. Make sure that the inside leg is pulsing closer to the girth, make sure you can give the inside rein and keep the horse between the inside leg and outside rein. Make sure the outside leg is stretched back/down. Sometimes halt IN sf/si POSITION and then continue (confirms the outside 'control'). Make sure that you are ALWAYS looking where the horse looks (and so are your shoulders) and the hips are pointed st ahead on the long side. You can also do ride a 20 m circle and do half of it in s.i., straighten for 1/2 the circle, start again....then it is much easier when ridden straight ahead. You are right about doing only a few strides, and then volte/or other exercises within the sf/si. Do not continue until the sf/si fails. Make sure the horse comes up from/reactive to the leg. Do some sf/si follow the head (straighten) to the 1/4 line or center line, then restart sf/si again. Remember sf is the bend of a 20m circle, 3 track si is the bend of 10m circle, and 4 track si is the bend of a 6/8m volte....all w/o crossing the hindlegs.

B*roquePony said: Quoted from ideayoda: Make sure the horse comes up from/reactive to the leg. The horse being responsive to your leg is the most important part of any of the above mentioned exercises (haunches in, shoulder in, shoulder fore) and is usually the reason things fall apart. You are beginning to train for moving the hindquarters and each hind leg, wherever you desire them to be, as you develop through these exercices. The horse must learn to respond to your leg and moving AWAY from it into the opposite hand (more or less). The horse needs to really understand this .. the sooner the better for both of you. You should be able to lightly 'bump' your horse's side and get a good strong response. If you 'bump' on the girth you should get bending in the mid-section of the horse and sideways movement. Behind the girth you should get bending of the haunches and forward movement. The bending should be the horse reacting by moving away from your leg, not into it. This is a taught response. If your horse does not understand and does not listen to your leg, reinforce it by raking the heel of your boot on the exact area that you want to get a response ... i.e. 'on the girth', or 'behind the girth'. It doesn't matter if it is 'out of form' .. pull your leg away from the side of the horse and use it ... either rake your heel, give your horse a well-directed kick, use a blunt spur (if your wear them) .. anything to get your horse to truly understand what you are asking of him. This is not supposed to be a punishment, it should be a physical explaination to your horse of what you are asking for. Your horse needs to learn about your legs and their direction as aids. They are the most important aids in your toolbox, other then a good solid seat that stays stuck in the saddle.

*deayoda said: Shoulder fore/in (and even LY) are the beginning of training for moving the FOREHAND and activating the hind legs. It is the horse bending round the inside leg because the (inside) hindleg steps more actively. The horse should not move away from the leg (that is for LY), but into the outside rein's limitation(s). Imho one does not 'rake the heel' because the horse is progressively trained to react to the calf (with support of the whip if necessary). In sf/si the inside leg drops closer to the girth. But ALL these reactions are based on progressive (re)actions ie bending/activity on a circle (because a sf/si is merely a 'bite' or first step onto a circle), on things like LY or a toF. It DOES matter of the inside leg is brought back, because that is likely to make the horse too straight(ened) and therefore a LY.

slc2 said: "not enough angle, not enough bend...resistance" what kind of resistance? what does the horse do? fuss? toss his head? lose his trot rhythm to the point of walking? rear? most of the time horses can't do shoulder in because: - they don't understand the aids to move their shoulder, bend and go forward - their circle work hasn't been done correctly. do good circles, you get good shoulder in. naturally, what helps is go back and work on the circles. - they are just plain old stiff overall. they might also be leaning on the reins, which makes them stiff, or holding themselves back behind the contact, which REALLY makes them stiff. leg yields, 'therapeutic' leg yields - not just doing them, but really getting the hind legs to cross, really bending the neck while maintaining the connection with the outside rein (done right, it also supples the back and the hind legs).

m*rrygoround said: I like starting horses and people on spiral circles. Spiral down to a 10 m circle, the LY out maintaining the bend of the 10 M circle.. Your outside leg must stay back keeping the hindquarters from straightening. Once a horse understands this, you can start shoulder in. I usually suggest starting it at the walk, so you can learn the bio-mechanics of it. The outside leg has to initially help, keep the shoulder-in :) and the quarters straight on the track. The inside leg maintains the bend, and energizes the movement. Once mastered at the walk, go for the trot. Remember the inside rein should be able to be dropped at any time and the bend maintained. If you lose the bend, you're not using enough leg. :sigh:

V*lentina_32926 said: On short side just before corner put horse in Haunches in, come around corner pushing horse into corner with inside leg, then keep swinging horse til shoulders are inside - YOURS and the horses, while YOUR hips are pointing straight ahead, then light squeeze/release on outside rein while applying inside leg at girth and Viola - SI. Note if horse like to throw haunches out keep outside leg behind girth to prevent this - use that leg to BLOCK the haunches from coming out, not actively (hope I'm explaining this so you get the picture). Then repeat exercise down centerline, quarterline, etc while rider is pointing hips where you want horse to go (I find that if I don't pay attention to my hips the SI falls apart).

slc2 said: "raking the heel of your boot on the exact area that you want to get a response ... i.e. 'on the girth', or 'behind the girth'. It doesn't matter if it is 'out of form' .. pull your leg away from the side of the horse and use it ... either rake your heel, give your horse a well-directed kick, use a blunt spur (if your wear them) .. anything to get your horse to truly understand what you are asking of him. " raking the heel i would say no to. keep a correct leg position and just escalate. a non response to a light aid is 'escalated', a firmer leg aid if it isn't the kind of horse that gets dull from that (or for a horse that doesn't yet respond well to the whip), or the whip. i don't think the lack of bend or angle in shoulder in (or resistance) is usually or even often because of a lack of 'listening' to the rider's leg. more often, i'd say the horse is generally stiff, or the shoulder in aids are not being applied correctly. usually if not responding to leg horse comes in off track, leg yield back. spiral in and out exercise is actually NOT to use leg yield at all. one spirals in on sequentially smaller circles, then spirals out, not leg yields. most people when they spiral in leg yield out are just teaching horse to run thru outside rein, and it makes them MORE trouble in shoulder in, not less. entweckeln i don't think as at all useful until the shoulder in is actually confirmed, it seems to cause people much more confusion and trouble than otherwise, again, horse is going thru outside aids. much better to circle and establish a bend in the body, then shoulder in a feww steps, circle again, etc. the loss of bend is the usual problem and usually the bend isn't there in the circles correctly drawing the circle line with the outside rein - get the circles right, the shoulder in will be fine.

k*hjul said: So by resistant, I mean tossing her head and trying to canter. We totally loose trot rythm, get funky little trot steps behind with "OK, I'll just canter" steps in front. It has gotten better, (the last couple of rides we haven't cantered at all and that has stopped the canter steps), the head has gotten steadier, I feel like we are 'getting there'. I just figured there were some more tools for by box out here. I'm going to try a few of these today and see if anythng helps/

slc2 said: you may be drawing your outside leg too far back, the horse thinks he should canter. try to go for less bend and less angle, and just think about maintaining the ryhthm.

k*hjul said: Had a great ride! Tried halting in the 10m a few times, then walking the si from that point. After a few times of that, she was much more quiet and less resistant staying in trot. I think I was making it too difficult, both with my aids (incorrect!) and asking for too much. She seemed to 'get it' today-if only for small moments. Thanks!

G*cci Cowgirl said: also, most people tend to pull back and get tight in their reins and seat when doing lateral work - keep everything moving forward, and just "place" your hands both towards the inside to bring the shoulders in- no pulling back to get bend and angle!

slc2 said: most people get so tense when they have to do some lateral work, it's true. it just has to get to be old hat.

G*cci Cowgirl said: agreed - it's funny, they all respond with "OMG! it's so much easier not to pull!" DUH!!!:D

D*ne said: also, most people tend to pull back and get tight in their reins and seat when doing lateral work - keep everything moving forward, and just "place" your hands both towards the inside to bring the shoulders in- no pulling back to get bend and angle! Good point. I also like going from shoulder-in to renver and back again so that you don't get the overbending neck problem. Also, if she gets fussy and canters, NO BIG DEAL, *but* keep the shoulder-in in the canter. Most people say, Ack, I've lost it and give up the angle...that's where the horse gets out of the work. Keep the shoulder-in in the canter and she'll figure out quickly that she's gotta do it in either gait. :winkgrin:

lst*venson said: most people when they spiral in leg yield out are just teaching horse to run thru outside rein, and it makes them MORE trouble in shoulder in, not less. Not at all if it's done correctly. Spiral in and leg yield out is often initally the most successful excercise to improve lateral suppleness when the horse/rider combination is not quite ready for shoulder in. It is usually met with less resistance than other forms of lateral work when the horse is uneducated, because the horses tend to "get it" and are less confused. I like to have my riders "stair step" the leg yield out (little bits of leg yield out followed by a period of straightening on the circle) to keep the horse balanced and prevent them from just falling out. One can also leg yield out in a shoulder fore position to increase suppleness, the engagement of the inside hind, and the horse's understanding of the rider's aids for shoulder in.

B*roquePony said: I like the half-turn in reverse (on the long wall) and then leg yield or shoulder-in back to the wall. It seems to come almost naturally to the horse as the horse feels that you are headed back to the track, so it becomes very easy to use you inside leg to outside rein and in a very short time period have the horse understand exactly what you are asking. You already have the horse thinking forward as in down the long wall, so you can take advantage of bending your horse into your hands with less chance of losing impulsion and forwardness.